You make the call: blow it up?
By Jake • Jun 15th, 2008 • Category: Feature Story
Many believe like I do that the Pirates set the direction of their ship when they hired Neal Huntington. While never expressing his thoughts on the subject, it was widely speculated that Tony LaCava wanted get younger and cheaper in typical ‘blow the ship up’ mode.
But Nutting and Coonelly turned their backs on LaCava - something that was not easy to do. Huntington didn’t - he tried to bring him aboard as his assistant but LaCava was handed a promotion in Toronto instead.
Ron Musselman of the Post-Gazette wrote a very good article Sunday most fans probably just casually glanced at - if at all. Musselman looked at no-shows in baseball and compared the Indians and Pirates markets a bit.
Buried in that article were these descriptive paragraphs:
“From mid-June 1995 to early April 2001, the Indians sold out a major-league record 455 consecutive games. They attracted 19,324,248 fans during that stretch, won six division titles and played in two World Series. The Indians have managed just 64 sellouts since that incredible run ended in a stadium that holds 43,545.
‘”We had a convergence of conditions in the mid-90s that will probably never be here again,” Shapiro said. “You’ve got to understand, we had a new ballpark and that already artificially bumps attendance. We had no football team in town — the Browns were gone for a few years — and the basketball team was not very good. LeBron [James] wasn’t here yet. And I think maybe the biggest thing of all was the fact we hadn’t won in baseball for 40 years.”
The Indians rode that wave through the 2001 season. Things started falling apart in 2002, when Shapiro traded ace Bartolo Colon and allowed popular slugger Jim Thome to sign with the Phillies as a free agent. Two years later, Shapiro declined to pick up the option on Gold Glove shortstop Omar Vizquel’s contract.
‘“Right at that same time the team was maturing, it needed to be turned over,” Shapiro said. “We accomplished that, but I think a side effect was the dramatic impact it had on our fan base emotionally. It traumatized them. They felt violated…”‘
It’s not hard to read between those lines, knowing Shapiro was the ringleader that got Huntington his position, and walk away with the Nutting/Coonelly short-term vision from the GM interviews…
… rebuilding isn’t an option.
Perhaps the remarks in Musselman’s article are simply coincidental, but it seems that Shapiro sold Huntington to Nutting and Coonelly by downplaying the rebuilding theme based on the Indians attendance problems that resulted from their rebuilding years.
After all, the last thing Nutting wants to do is to alienate the remaining fan base since he knows the Pirates aren’t going to be contenders anytime soon. He has to sell tickets… some deep revenue sharing streams are going to dry up fairly soon, advertising dollars and suite sales are down, and as Musselman pointed out, ticket sales are lagging.
Last winter we saw Huntington stand pat. Now we’re hearing tidbits that the Pirates might actually want to keep Bay. Of course with the trade deadline approaching, we don’t know if that’s PR to increase Bay’s value, or if it’s true they will keep him.
Considering Huntington had Bay all but shipped off to Shapiro and the Indians over the winter before Coonelly supposedly nixed the deal, we can assume one of two things happened there:
1. Huntington was attempting to pay back Shapiro regardless of ownership’s rebuilding theme; or
2. Huntington did want to deal Bay with an eye toward rebuilding.
Frank Coonelly is no fool - he knows baseball contracts. The theme this winter from Coonelly to the players was - prove to us you want to stay here. Bay has done just that - plus some. If Bay truly wants to stay, then I assume the Pirates are going to go after him immediately seeking to add a few years to his current contract at a significantly reduced hometown rate.
That also gives Coonelly more flexibility because it significantly increases Bay’s value while also showing intent of the Pirates to keep him as a franchise player. In other words, if you want Bay, you better bring a Brinks truck to the table.
It’s smart business.
Until you consider Coonelly might be being taken to the cleaners by the very players he is attempting to manipulate via contracts. Take Sanchez - new money, no production. Take Wilson - new deal in 2006 and he bombed defensively that year, managed to play just 135 games in 2007, and out again in 2008. Take Snell - new money, no production. Take Bay in the past - he got new money and then dogged us for two years and now that he’s getting closer to a new deal, he’s picking up steam.
I mean, when was the last time the Pirates got full value for giving a player new money? Think hard… dum-de-dum-da - dum-de-dum. See what I mean. Kendall? Perhaps. Don’t ever forget that the players run the roost. Not the front office, not the field brass, not the owners. The players.
So while Nutting and Coonelly might very well have been led down the ‘don’t rebuild’ path by Huntington and Shapiro (doubtful, but just a wild guess), it seems they really only have one option - to rebuild. But will Nutting allow it? And, is it really the only - or best - option?
Here’s your chance to tell the Pirates what you think they should do before the deadline. Formulate your best argument and put it in a comment below and when the thread fills up, I’ll send your thoughts to the Pirates front office. Be sure to add if you are a season tix holder or not.
Jake is no longer contributing at Bucco Blog, a fan blog covering the Pittsburgh Pirates.
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I’m a season ticket holder with one comment. It would be nice if they would announce their intention and stick to their guns.
Keep Bay for now, trade Nady, Jack Wilson and Marte. If LaRoche heats up AT ALL, trade him too. If he continues his usual pace of .225 with an occasional homer, keep him. That combination needs to net us a low level short stop prospect that has five tool potential and at least one impact starter.
Not a season ticket holder, lifelong fan and out of towner who attends 5-10 games a year with at least 4 other fans each time. I believe Bay is playing well to help Neal trade him. I don\’t see why he would want to stay. Don\’t be blinded by blips of .500 runs. This team needs to be rebuilt. It can be done quickly too. Drafting Alvarez was a step in the right direction. Cutch, Pearce, Friday, Ford, Lincoln, and others are close. Let Neal make the deals. I would love to come to PNC and see a young competitve team with hope for the future. Bring in Leo Mazzone as an adviser for developing our young pitchers. Please allow this franchise to win again. Don\’t be afraid to send out feelers for potential buyers. You will make a handsome profit and can put the slots in 7 Springs.
Blow it all up. I\\\’d much rather go see a team with PROMISE than a team that is HOPING to be .500. That\\\’s what this current team is. They have maxed out on potential. There is nothing to look forward to. I used to go to about 10 Pirates games a season. I have boycotted them for the past three years. I barely watch on TV anymore. Buccoblog is usually where I get my Pirates updates.
I like some of the things the Pirates have been doing. They are signing older free agents that actually have some left in the tank and still have a fire under them. I would much rather the Pirates trade all their bums (J. Wilson, Sanchez, Snell) that don\\\’t want to play for their contracts and have some of these oldtimers show hustle and spirit. Although it\\\’d be the same result, a losing season, it would be a lot more interesting to see and there would be hope from the prospects acquired in the deals that sent the bum players away.
WHO CARES IF THEY REBUILD? Pittsburgh saw what happened with the penguins. The die hards remained when the Penguins went in the cellar for a few years. There were enough to sell tickets at a decent rate. Hockey is a whole different arena though. Hockey tickets are expensive. The sport\\\’s in the winter. There won\\\’t be much change in ticket prices for baseball, a summer sport, than there already is. Pirates tickets are cheap. Most Pirates fans seem to support this team regardless of the record, just as long as they get cheap promos and fireworks. You\\\’d think ownership would learn this by now? It doesn\\\’t matter if the team is 62-100 or 81-81, the current roster would spawn the same results and failures at around the same ticket sales.
I really wouldn\\\’t care if the team was 1-161, just as long as there was hope in the future for a WS title.
Go all out this year and next if needed so we don\’t break the consecutive losing season record streak. Then blow it up. Do we really want to take that record away from the Phillies? Its Philadelphia ffs.
TRADE NADY! There won\’t be much fall off offensively with Jason Michaels and potentially McCutchen called up plus you may get a nice pitching prospect to go along with Lincoln, potentially Scheppers, and the way it\’s gone lately Moskos. TRADE MARTE but be patient. The Bucs could net a compensatory 1st round pick next year and if they\’re unable to sign Pedro (they better) and/or Scheppers they made get 4 picks of out the Top 50! Inject more money in development and international product.
Partial season ticket holder and i say BLOW IT UP do what ever is needed to get younger and to give this team a futuer get cutch and pearce and even walker up here now what is the worst that could happen we have another losing season what els is new at least we would get to see what this prospects are about. I like Jack Wilson but if he can bring in a young arm or any kind or prospect with good make up do it. I honesly LOVE THE PIRATES and always will but it gets so frustrating see ur team pick in the top of the draft for 15 seasons straight and nothin pan out and if they did we give them away for nothing comeon buccos lets get this shit together. Nuttings i think u guys have made enough money lets try to build a WINNING ball club NOW!!!
BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT UP! Keeping vets around to chase .500 is ridiculous. And if that is the case I may have to find a new team until Nutting sells the team. Honestly, I probably won’t be able to really root for anyone else, but I sure as heck won’t be going to any games to see a team that may or may not be able to reach .500, wow what a great sell that is. “Come See the Bucs, we have the talent to only lose half our games!” There’s a slogan for ya. Anyway, trade Nady, Bay, Wilson, Sanchez, LaRoche, Duke, maybe even Snell, Gorzo, Maholm, and Doumit. Keep all the prospects and McLouth. Build a contender for 2010 and beyond. The real Pirates fans can put up with a few down years if there is a real contender on the horizon.
ADDDDDD! Fix the holes at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd base. Find a true top of the rotation starter. Add another bullpen arm. We are the no.4? offense in the league with probably the poorest infield production by far. Our Rotation is still very young and they need a true veteran anchor. We can stand to deal Nady, Marte, Laroche, Sanchez and even a prospect or two (Walker, Duffy) in the right situation. With Alvarez, Cutch, and possibly Pearce on the horizon we aren\’t that far off. We would have a nice mix of vets and young guys. Re-sign Bay. Shore up the defense(I.E. Sanchez).
We\’ve all seen what happens when we pawn off all our older players. We get poor value and no decent free agents want to come here for more than a year. This causes us to rush our best prospects before they are ready and they just wash out time and time again. This is a solid ball club and should only improve with the young guys coming up and an addition here or there. I see a playoff team possibly as soon as next year if you can find that final starter.
Kaizen.
No fire sale, make this team continuously better with each passing day. Change the culture, acquire role players, make smart trades that make the Pittsburgh Pirates better, not the Altoona Curve, continue to develop scouting, acquire key free agent, develop talent, make a smart trades that make the Pittsburgh Pirates better…etc…etc.
Kaizen..
This new management (despite the same ownership) has made moves I haven’t liked and has made moves I have liked. But as of this writing, I sit here disappointed with certain aspects of this team, but satisfied that the Pittsburgh Pirates and their results to date are playing better than I expected. That shows me something positive may be happening. Maybe its JR, maybe its Neal Huntingdon, but its a combination of many things - either way - there is a positive direction right now that the Pirates are moving toward.
A fire sale would be irresponsible. We all see the Outfield getting crowded and our rotation and infield getting thin. Trade an outfielder with peak value and a minor leaguer, get a + pitcher or infielder (2b in my book).
Pearce and MCutchen are waiting - Bay or Nady can go - but not both. I like them both, but I think its what needs to happen to make the organization better. Either of those two, package with another decent player, can give us a good return - the trick is finding a match. From there you still have a very solid outfield and you\’ve improved upon one of your weaknesses.
Kaizen.
They need to find out if Bay will stay here with a hometown discount. If so, there\\\\\\\’s no way they should trade him. They just need to draft smart and not make stupid trades and salary dumps. I\\\\\\\’ll throw out three names. Matt Wieters, Aramis Ramirez, and Chris Young. Where would we be with those three? Above .500 and with 3 of the top 20 prospects in baseball, imo.
I’d add to that an attractive place for free agents as well.
I like the direction we’re moving in right now. Sure anyone can just say “blow it up”, but you need to make sure you get fair market value for your assets. Not biting on that Bay trade in the offseason was a good move. That being said, the value we DO get for the players we are bound to trade away is going to be very telling. We’ve all been very tired of the GM bringing in Ty Wigginton/Armando Rios types. At least Huntington understands the need of higher upside prospects. I’m confident the ship will be righted.
In response to the comment above, about not Biting on the Bay trade, yes, Bay did improve his value. But if we had accepted the deal of Bay and Paulino for Lee, Shoppach and Gutierrez, we may be better off right now. Here is why. Paulino is currently in AAA because of his lack of production, so having a good defensive catcher like Shoppach to go along with Doumit would be advantage Pirates. Getting Gutierrez and Lee for Bay would also be advantage Pirates and here is why. If Lee pitched for the Bucs the way he has for the Indians, wouldn’t he have just as much, if not more, trade value than Bay? We could have spun him around for some good prospects, maybe better than Bay can get, even with his re-emergence. And then Gutierrez is a bonus. He has good speed, is very good defensively with a strong outfield arm with the potential to hit 25hrs. Even though Bay’s value has increased, what we would have gotten back in that deal may be better than what we have now, mainly because of Lee’s better-than-expected pitching, and Paulino’s downfall. What do you think Jake? Could Lee fetch a better deal than Bay right now?
More teams are looking for pitching. Bay could fetch a good bounty if (BIG IF) the right situation presents itself. I still think if ther Indians trade Sabathia they may still look to get Bay. Prospects received from a Sabathia trade could be spun to Pittsburgh for Bay. Dodgers and Rangers are said to be looking at CC. Both of those teams have prospects that would fit well here. How about a three team trade? That would make Dejan happy.
Partial Season ticket holder: I think there is a improvement with the direction of the team/organization. Just drafting Alvarez and scout.com giving the Pirates the 2nd highest rating for the draft is a big positive sign in my opinion. Only trade for high ceiling talent.
This team does NOT need to be blown up. It\’s simply missing pitching - period. Who in their right mind would take one of the top offenses in baseball and blow it up because the results haven\’t been that great so far?
If you have an television that runs well but the remote control is bad, what do you do? Replace the whole TV? Of course not - you go out and get what is needed. Clearly, this team\’s ability to produce runs (even with Sanchez hitting terribly) has been great. Why would you blow that up? Instead, you acquire the pieces you need - namely, more pitching. If you absolutely feel that Nady has to be traded and will be unsignable, then by all means trade him. At least McCutcheon or Pearce could probably fill his spot for the time being. But to rely on both of them in the event that Nady AND Bay are traded would be foolish. The Pirates would be right back to square one with a lesser offense and potentially a slightly better pitching staff. Hope that either Snell or Gorzelanny has a better year next year (and it looks like Snell is back to being the Snell of \’07 with his arm trouble seemingly behind him) and pick up another starter either in free agency or by trading Nady.
By the way - 8-plan and partial season ticket holder over the past few years.